Happy New Year to all of my readers!
I hope you thrived (or at least survived) throughout whatever 2024 brought your way, or forced upon you. And I hope that you’ll continue to visit me on your curiosity journey throughout 2025. Let’s dive in…
I’m kicking off 2025 with a new series of posts: Conversations, which will be peppered intermittently between my usual ENM articles throughout the year. The ‘Conversations’ series aims to shine a light on a range of different people who are living The Lifestyle in their own, unique way. That way, whether you’re considering opening your relationship in some way, are dipping your toes into the lifestyle, or are an established ENM-er, you can catch a glimpse into the personal lives of others who might be going through similar experiences.
Today, I’ll be bringing you the transcripts of a discussion I recently had with this elusive husband of mine, as an introductory window into how we navigate the weird and wonderful realm of Ethical Non-Monogamy. We encouraged lifestyle friends of ours to send in a range of questions that we could answer together, recorded the Q&A, and just let the talking flow from there.
Maybe you’ll read something you can really relate to. Maybe some content will make you stop and think about how you feel regarding a particular topic.
Or perhaps you’ll just enjoy scrolling, eye-rolling and sipping a margarita, in the pyjamas you haven’t washed since the perineum of Christmas.
To be honest, I did my own fair share of eye-rolling Mr BeyondThePineapple, when forcing a cup of tea in his hands and holding him hostage in our living room, because he’s generally allergic to deep chats. I won’t tell you what I agreed to, in return for an extraction of his inner most thoughts and feelings, but I’m certain I’ll have sore knees afterwards. Here’s to my fine editing skills- Cheers!
In the conversation below, I will refer to my husband as ‘H’ and myself as the wife ‘W’.
Q: How did you begin in the Lifestyle, and how have things evolved for you both?
W: The way we started was by chance I guess, we’ve always described it as The Perfect Storm-
H: Yep, not a perfect storm in a teacup; the perfect storm in a hot tub…
W: It’s always a hot tub! So, we had a couple we were already friends with and I guess, there’d already been some mutual interest … or a mutual appreciation of the concept that we might one day in the future be open to sleeping with somebody beyond our marriages (no shady business obviously!). We all thought that would be fun and had many a drunken conversation about it, and over time there was some- I guess you could say- sexual tension between us…
H: We were just all really comfortable with each other.
W: Yep, and one night.. in the hot tub, it escalated very quickly, and we were all flirting; having fun with each other, and we were really close anyway-
H: It started with the girls taking their bikini tops off…
W: Like every swinger story in the world. Ladies got their tops off, and before long, we were actually having sex in the hot tub… which I don’t recommend by the way! Because water is the worst lube, and more importantly, you should probably have way more consideration about this stuff before diving in. But that’s how it happened, and I remember it was all light and fun at the end of the evening, but the next day I woke up thinking:
Shit, what have we done to our friendship? I wonder how they’re feeling. I’ve got to send a message and see how they are/ see where they’re at.
Luckily, they came back saying how awesome it all was; how fun it all was. None of us could believe it had happened.
Then over time, we would meet them every few weeks for more hot times, games…sex. But it was always separate-room play. I hadn’t fully acknowledge I was bisexual at that point, but I had a strong inkling. I don’t think we knew at the time what ‘swinging’ was! All we knew was that we were having a good time with another couple, and because we all considered ourselves more-or-less straight (ha!), there wasn’t that fluidity in group play, and it kind of made more sense somehow to separate at a certain point in the night? Like a typical partner swap. And that’s what it was for 2 years.
So… how would you say it’s evolved over time?
H: Well we don’t really do the separate room play now. After it ended with our first couple, and we’d taken a break during COVID times, we decided to get back out there with a first club visit in 2022, I think? By this point, it was about finding other couples we liked…
W: By this time, we’d done research into swinging/ Ethical Non-Monogamy, listened to podcasts…and at that point, we were thinking we would be more on the swinging spectrum. That we’d meet other couples for connection first (because that’s always been important to us), but definitely the focus was for fun, sexy times, right? And we wanted to focus on same-room play because by then I’d really become interested in exploring with women…so I wanted to be involved there! And actually, one thing that surprised us, having fallen into the lifestyle inadvertently, was that most swinger couples (at least the ones we met in the community) seemed to prefer same room play anyway.
H: Oh yeah…and one thing I’ll say about how I’ve changed since our first experiences is that I used to hold myself back a lot from being too flirty or forward with the other woman, especially after some jealousy cropped up there. But since then, I’ve learnt how important it is to make sure the other couple have talked about their boundaries; what might count as over-stepping the mark…and we tend to play with couples who are able to experience compersion like we are. That’s allowed me to really embrace that enjoyment.
W: Absolutely…. Here’s a strange fact that you might not know that’s just popped into my mind. When we’d decided that same-room play actually suited us far more, I remember feeling a little bit shy almost, and weird that you would see me in that sexual space with another person! When you hadn’t really before. Did you feel anything like that?
H: Haha…not that I remember. I tend to brush those things off or shut things down if they feel awkward for me!
W: Luckily, our first same-room play experience with another couple felt really natural in the end. I do think it’s worth mentioning that over time, we’ve never been … what’s the word…prolific in the lifestyle with lots of different couples (obviously no judgement on that for anybody else at all)…but for us, we tend to build connections with people we feel our values align with. Over time, we’ve learnt what we do want, what we don’t want. And where we haven’t repeated an experience, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s because we don’t enjoy them as people, but it might mean we’re looking for different things, etc. We’re more discerning now, I’d say.
H: Yeah, sometimes you realise after a while that you’re not on the same page in play-styles or personality etc. Things change.
W: Occasionally, boundaries have been crossed, or life circumstances get in the way, or we’re not hugely compatible. So it’s better to move on. Right now, we’ve kind of narrowed things down to connections with a smaller number of people, but these are so valuable and special to us. Who knows what will happen in the future… we’re open to new connections and want to attend socials etc (time permitting) but I’m happy with the people we spend time with, and proud of what we’ve created.
I suppose the most recent evolution for us is that we’ve dipped our toes into solo dating. You could say I drove that, because I wanted separate connections with another woman. Exploring my bisexuality more independently is quite important to me. And through that process, you’ve also had the opportunity to have a few solo dates. Do you know why you personally chose to go ahead with solo dating? Have you valued the space to do that outside of our relationship?
H: Yeah of course. It’s been nice to explore these things but at the same time, it doesn’t feel as big of a deal for me in that I’m not looking for as much deep intimacy. I enjoy exploring new dynamics and have had lots of fun in the process… but it feels more opportunistic for me, and maybe not as intentional as it is for you. Overall, we’re both open to new experiences and seeing where they lead.
W: Whilst prioritising our marriage, family and existing relationships.
Q: How would you capture your particular ‘flavour’ or ‘brand’ of ENM?
H: This is a difficult question because I don’t think we necessarily fit into a particular box. Labels can be useful for some people but I think we’ve done things in a different order to a lot of people- some things faster, some things slower. We jumped straight in at the deep end at the very beginning, not really knowing what we were doing…and I think that’s made us quite relaxed about different ‘stages’. We tend to move through whatever order or whatever pace we feel is right at the time.
W: So you feel that there are different stages to the Lifestyle, in your opinion?
H: For some people, especially in the swinger community, it’s very much…you might start off meeting people; you might try ‘soft-swapping’ to begin with; you might then move into ‘full-swap’ play. Some ENM people might try larger group play, or explore separate room play if the comfort levels grow. For others, they might then progress onto solo dating… or people might prefer more of a poly angle. There are loads of different spaces under the ENM umbrella. We never really defined ourselves as any one of these things. I always say: Try anything once…twice…even three times! ‘Cause you never know!
W: So would you say you come at this from more of a ‘swinger’ angle? Because I know that we do differ somewhat in this, and that will be clear when I give my answer.
H: I’ve always thought of myself as more….”this is going to be fun and I’m happy to try it out”…but it is far more fun when you get to truly know people, and our approach feels less ‘swingery’ in lots of ways now. I always thought I’d be a ‘DTF’ type of person, but that’s never what it’s made out to be most of the time. I don’t find that satisfying at all.
W: That’s been the biggest surprise for me in all of this with you. To be fair, we initially opened our relationship with that first couple who had been our friends prior to anything sexual happening. So the connection was already there. But, when we later branched out into meeting new people, you thought it would just be a bit of uncomplicated fun outside of our main primary relationship; that there wouldn’t really be any feelings involved, even though you were open to connecting. There’d still be that level of care obviously, but you weren’t open to loving feelings, and didn’t expect any deep connections to happen. What I’ve noticed over the past couple of years is that you’ve become a lot more discerning, you’ve found that one-night-stands, or not being connected to the people, is really not what you want at all.
H: Yeah, you’re right. The variety of people I’m interested in is much narrower than I originally thought! Because I’m much less interested in ‘just fun’ or just physical attraction. I need more.
W: And what have you discovered about the possibility of deeper feelings being involved over the last couple of years?
H: It really doesn’t bother me or worry me at all. Y’know… typically, we’re not jealous people generally. We might get the occasional pang. So I see any feelings that develop beyond surface level as something that makes our experience better. Expecting that you’re never going to feel things for people is unrealistic because we’re not robots.
W: So it sounds like what you’re saying is… if you had to put it into a particular ‘brand’ or ‘flavour’ of ENM, neither of us subscribe to the idea that labels and ‘wrapping it all up in a bow’ is helpful, because we’re always open to evolution. Things change, we don’t know what’s going to come along…but that we’re open to how things develop.
H: Pretty much. Some people might feel like they need labels, or stricter boundaries to stabilise their relationship when exploring ENM, and I think maybe we did at first. Now though, I don’t know if we want to feel as restricted by those things. If we want to try something, we do, and if we don’t like it afterwards, we stop. Lots of work goes into all of this for us, but that’s it in a nutshell.
W: I’ve always felt like ENM is on a spectrum, and I’m not saying I’m an expert on this at all, but you could consider one end of the spectrum as ‘hardcore swingers’ maybe, who are wanting to have very casual, sexual experiences only. And for some people, that’s absolutely fantastic and it works well for them. On the other end of the spectrum, you could place full-on polyamory: a capacity for, or an establishment of deep, loving relationships with multiple people, potentially. Now, I’d say you and I are in similar places on that spectrum but not quite the same.
H: Put in very simple, numerical terms (because I like those!), if ‘Down to Fuck’ was a 1 on the scale, and ‘Living together in a Polycule’ was a 10, I’d say we’re closer to a 6 or a 7, rather than a 3 or a 4.
W: Yep, I need connections emotionally and intellectually with people, and I’d argue you’re very much the same (we’ve come to find), but we differ in that I’m probably more open to accepting that I’ve got the capacity to love more than one person, than you are.
H. Yes.
W: Because I’m a very deeply-feeling person and sometimes you can be a little bit avoidant of that.
H: No, I wouldn’t say I’m avoidant of it. I’d just say…
W: You’re dead inside?
H: Haha yeah. No, I’d just say it would take me a lot more to get to that point. It would probably be a sudden realisation that I had really strong feelings, much later down the road. And I don’t think I’m necessarily open to that.
W: Inside and outside of the Lifestyle, I think that we’re both deeply-feeling people, but I wear my heart on my sleeve more, and you’ve tucked yours away somewhere to protect it. But if I had to summarise the flavours we’ve tried and talk about what we’ve managed to create so far, it would be:
An impromptu orgy, fun times at social/ club events, some hard lessons learnt, varied interactions with a range of interesting people, some solo dating experiences, and most importantly: deep friendships with a narrower group of beautiful people, that we have shared some incredibly intimate, hot (and also wholesome) times with.
Q. Why did you decide to become Ethically Non-Monogamous, and why have you chosen to stay this way?
H: Oddly enough for us, I don’t think that we chose to go into it. As we’ve said before, we sort of fell into it. There were never those first discussions about it all. Obviously with us and that initial couple, there were mutual feelings/ agreements on continuing what had happened in the hot tub that first time, but for us, or for other people doing the same thing, it could have been a disaster!
W: Yes, in hindsight, we took a lot of unnecessary risks!
H: We were just lucky enough to all roll with it…keep going and keep trying things, and it worked out for the most part, barring a few challenges.
W: We’d always shared jokes, comments and discussions ever since we got together though, hadn’t we. It was like we inherently knew that we would be open to that kind of thing in the future. Because I remember saying to you when we first got together, as like a little off-hand comment:
“Would you ever try a sex club?”
I’d heard somebody talking about London sex clubs, and you said:
“Yes I think I would- would you?”
And I agreed. So, ever since then, we knew we were both somewhat mutually interested in that stuff.
H: We’ve also always pointed out other people/ celebrities that we’ve found attractive as well. For some couples, that wouldn’t be acceptable, but we’ve generally felt secure enough in ourselves and our relationship to be able to say those things openly.
W: We’ve rarely felt jealousy or envy for each other. And I definitely have, in relationships before you. Hardly ever with you, though. I don’t know whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing!
H: I think it’s made it all a lot easier though. The security has enabled it all. I actually think that even if we hadn’t fallen into the Lifestyle as we did, you can guarantee that at some point, a threesome or something like that would have come up as a possibility.
W: And we would have tried a sex club. The curiosity…
H: Yeah, that one night in the hot tub boosted everything-
W: A canon event.
H: But I also think that when the pandemic hit, and we were restricted in so many ways, that time- like it did for a lot of people- gave us a chance to have lots of conversations and think about the things we wanted to do. That gave us the time to really go over what we wanted in our relationship.
W: I think COVID kind of brought the concept of mortality into the fore for lots of people. That, along with the loss of experiences, being shut down, not being able to see the people you loved, or even losing them altogether… the world was almost thrown into something a bit existential. Also, something we can’t deny, is that during that time, my mum’s illness and death definitely kick-started a more urgent thought process of:
We want to live.
H: “Fuck this, we’ll do what we want!”
W: Exactly! So… why are we still in the Lifestyle?
H: BECAUSE. IT’S. FUN.
W: Despite the challenges?
H: The fun times outweigh the hard times.
W: And if the challenges outweighed the positive experiences, would you want to (or be able to) stop?
H: I think we’d have to take a pause. And really look into why we’re not having as much fun as we used to. Recalibrate…and if we found out it’s for reasons that can’t be fixed or can’t be adjusted for, stopping would have to be a serious consideration. But unless we were both on the same page, that would be very difficult.
W: That’s probably worth a whole blog post on its own! For me, we’re still in the lifestyle because of our desire for freedom; for authentic living; for defying social norms (not for the sake of it but regarding the ones we don’t align with); for being able to explore different people/ different connections; my bisexuality. All of those things far outweigh the challenges we’ve experienced so far. Even though some times have been awful or hard, we’re always growing. One fear for both of us has always been stagnating.
H: Certainly for you, yes. I am change-averse, generally, and more likely to be content with how things are. Life feels like a lot sometimes, and now and again, the Lifestyle adds extra pressure. So you tend to be the driving force for new experiences. But when they arrive, I’m all in.
W: The lows can be low, but the highs are HIGH!
Q: Are there times when your approaches to the ENM lifestyle don’t 100% align? If so, how do you both deal with that?
H: After a bit of thought on this, I’ll talk about when we have been trying to meet new people or make new connections. If we’re getting to know people, and they do something that you might not like, I’m much more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. You know…’see how it goes’/ ‘there must be a reason for it’…and I’ll give them one, two, even three opportunities for things to get better if something doesn’t immediately feel right. I tend to make excuses for them; see them in the best light. But if it carries on after that, its ‘scorched earth’, for me. I’ll then be thinking ‘No more, that’s it.’
W: And you’d never return to that option again after that?
H: No, never. Whereas in your eyes, if somebody starts to show signs of… ‘wronging’ you in some way, your guard goes up straight away. You’ll then want to get out of there immediately, before any possible chance of them hurting/ rejecting you.
W: I notice you’re quite black and white with this issue. So you see it as: it’s about where I might perceive people as ‘wronging’ me. For me, this whole topic is much more nuanced, where (and this applies to how you are outside of the Lifestyle as well), you have a more optimistic stance on people. Even when things don’t seem to be right with other people, or a potential connection, you’ll give them a few chances before you write them off. Would you agree?
H: I like to assume there might be stuff going on for them at the time etc, and…. yeah.
W: I am very discerning, it’s true. But I also consider myself very intuitive (which you sometimes think is anxiety or my past traumas flagging up)…and I will often cut off a connection or not want to pursue a connection based on that intuition. Because I trust it. You like evidence. I intuit. Sometimes that’s been challenging for us because I’ve written off opportunities from the get-go, whereas you might have really thought it was worth pursuing. Other times, I think it’s been challenging in a different way because we’ve then had to compromise. Which is ultimately how we cope with misaligned approaches:
I’ve occasionally let some of those ‘anxieties’, concerns or ‘intuitions’ go to give people the benefit of the doubt. Which has led to some good experiences (more often not, in my opinion haha). Compromise for you is that you’ve tried to listen more when I’ve said there are some red flags. You’ve always respected when I don’t want to pursue somebody/ something, even if it’s solely based on an intuition that you don’t necessarily believe in from the start.
H: At the end of the day, if you’re going to get into an ENM lifestyle with your partner, you’ve both got to be on the same page. Unless you’re both saying an enthusiastic ‘yes’, then it’s a flat ‘no’, realistically.
W: Mmm hmm, if one partner doesn’t want to do something, then it can only ever be a ‘no’ for both of you. We’d always offer that respect for each other, always, but compromise and communication is needed to stay as aligned as possible.
Q: Is there anything you’ve held back from in the Lifestyle, for fear of upsetting or hurting each other?
H: Fear of ‘upsetting’ might be too harsh of a word for this, but the only thing that comes to mind with this, is linked to solo dating. There’s a couple of things. The first one has been any sort of discussion about overnight stays, because from the outset, you’ve said that it makes you feel uncomfortable. I can definitely see the difference between ‘going for a meet-up’, having a night out and then coming home, compared to doing all of that as well as staying over. There’s potentially a deeper level of…intimacy and connection there. As well as more time taken away from our family. I always said from the beginning that I didn’t ever want to do anything that was going to have a negative effect on the family unit.
W: So you held back on pushing for overnight stays or making that a thing, because you knew I wasn’t comfortable with it?
H: Yes. But then it would have only been pushing due to my ‘try anything once’ approach rather than feeling a need to do that. For all I know, I might not have enjoyed it anyway, but I do like to try things at least. And another thing in reference to solo dating here, is a couple of occasions when we’ve met women at a social and I’ve later said:
“Oh, they’re nice! Maybe I could contact them?”
And you’ve said:
“Hmmm something feels off about them. I’m not sure I want that to happen between you and that particular person.”
On those occasions, to prevent any future issues, I’ve swerved that and not tried.
W: Yes, and although I stand by it, I have felt guilty about that at the same time. Through our early exploration into solo dating, we’ve both found that it’s quite important to each of us, that the other partner only dates somebody that we both at least respect.
H: Yes definitely…somebody that we both approve of and feel comfortable about.
W: Yes, and I think sometimes that could be considered somewhat problematic because we could argue that we should both have our own agency in choosing who we date. A lot of people might argue that we’re trying to have an element of control over each other, that we don’t have a right to? But I think for us, we both realised that whilst we don’t need to fully understand or relate to the attraction one partner has to somebody they want to date, we do need to have a level of respect for that person…in that our values generally align with theirs. That feels more comfortable for us.
H: It’s about respecting each other. If one of us says we don’t like the thought of something or wants to put a particular boundary in place, sometimes there doesn’t have to be a strong set of reasons for it… because a feeling is a feeling. But we both talk together about what feels fair.
W: Should it matter what I think about the people you date? Because ultimately, it’s not about me. I’m wondering between us, why it actually does?
H: For some people it might not. For me, if I’m getting ready to go out and I’m going off to somebody that you don’t like or respect, for any reason… the thought of you sitting at home and thinking about me being with somebody you’re uncomfortable with …takes any fun out of it. I want this to be fun for the pair of us. Even when the play is an individual thing. When you go out with somebody on a solo date, I like to see your excitement and I enjoy you coming home to talk about it. If you couldn’t come home and talk to me about it because I thought your date was a dick, it wouldn’t work for either of us.
W: So in that way, it’s quite important for us in solo dating that, despite being separate from each other, our solo ventures should continue to feed positively and healthily into our marriage…and reinforce our connection.
H: Exactly.
W: Okay, so the thing that I actually hold back from, which is going to surprise you because I’m pretty sure you’ll think I don’t is…also to do with solo dating. As you know, something once happened that really upset me/ confused me/ hurt me with a person. My process is that I talk about things TO DEATH. Until I understand it. Obviously, sometimes we can’t understand why people do things and this is where I, believe it or not, try to hold back on discussing it with you too much because, you get frustrated that we’ve had the conversation already and that you can’t fix it for me. You don’t like seeing me in pain, or being helpless in a situation, so you lean towards avoiding the topic after the initial conversations. That can cause me to feel like I can’t be sad about another person with you.
And actually, I’m very aware that sometimes it isn’t fair for your primary partner to bear the brunt of another person’s hurtful actions. I don’t want to disrespect the fact that I do have a wonderful family, that I do have a solid marriage…and I don’t want my worries and anxieties over solo dating to make you feel like I don’t appreciate all of that, or that you’re not enough for me. So I do try to back off a bit then.
H: If somebody comes to me with a problem, my instinct is to find a way to solve that problem. If it’s not as black and white as that, I struggle with that, especially when I get asked to run over it several times. I know it’s your process but I do struggle with it.
W: We are complete opposites in that. I come at it from a place where I don’t want to be fixed. I just need you to be there; to be a sounding board; to listen; to validate what I’m feeling…but to an extent, that’s not your natural approach. But I also know that it’s because you love me so much that it’s a struggle for you to bear witness to my feelings sometimes.
Q: What do you love most about Ethical Non-Monogamy?
W: Let’s see if we can each list 3 things we love about ENM. We can take turns… go!
H: Freedom! The freedom to explore… all the fun things that the Romans did ha! Different people, connections and experiences.
W: Yeah, I did assume you meant the Roman orgies/ group sex/ sexual liberation rather than mass violence and road infrastructure. Okay, my first one is the fact that ENM, on some levels, can feel like a drug. The highs that we’ve had in some instances have been so filled with endorphins/ dopamine/ excitement… all the things that I love. It just makes life feel even more worth living. Some of our experiences have been incredible and I don’t hear many people our age talk about their experiences like that. I really value it.
H: Being able to talk openly to other people about anything. You can talk about what you did last weekend and the weather, and then roll straight into what style of butt plug you like and a fantastic shag you had last night.
W: Ha yes! As you know, I’m not even a big fan of butt plugs but just last week, we were having a conversation with a close lifestyle couple about whether a certain butt plug was ‘flared’ enough at the base…
H: So it wouldn’t get sucked up inside your bumhole! Then we moved over to a different chat with lifestyle friends about tentacle dildos and Brutus, the Monster Cock of 2025 Goals!
W: …and wondering how comfortable it would be for the dildo’s spiky tentacle tip to tickle a cervix. OKAY! Next… Honorable and obvious mention towards being able to explore my bisexuality in an authentic way. Your turn…last one, make it good!
H: This is an expansion on everything because it does encompass it all but…the escapism of it all. Whether that’s going for a weekend away, having friends over, going to an event/ a social/ a party. It’s all so different compared to anything you might do in mundane life. And we get to turn up to these experiences and really embrace them.
W: So some people might choose to read a nice book-
H: With some hot cocoa…
W: Which I also enjoy. But we also get to dress up and have a night of debauchery if we so choose.
My final one is that we have a consistent and ongoing opportunity to learn new things about ourselves, through exciting (and challenging) experiences…and this feeds into our marriage and continually strengthens it. So, even if we’ve had really hard times, we’ve come through them and I think that’s reinforced our connection in our marriage. We have an improved sex life; we’re more confident and more open; more adventurous. We’ve cultivated deep, deep friendships.
H: Bonus content: The stories you can tell on your dementia-ridden deathbed will disturb all of the grandchildren and staff.
W: And to counter-act that, I’ll also add a bonus one, but end on a deeper note: dicks and tits.
Q: If you could remove, or change anything in the Lifestyle, what would it be?
W: This is going to be more of a light-hearted question because I’m sure we could talk all day about things we find problematic or questionable in the lifestyle, but let’s have some fun with this one. So go on then… if you had a magic wand and you could remove or change anything, what would it be?
H: My one isn’t really realistic…
W: Neither is a magic wand.
H: …but it refers to events and nights out in a sex club.
W: Okay…
H: In the playrooms…just have some nice SOFT FURNISHINGS. Maybe a sheet on the bed; some nice silk pillows-
W: You can’t!
H: Yeah well it ain’t gonna work as I said, because of the mess people would make of those.
W: So you’d want a butler who is waiting for you to finish your foursome, with fresh towels and sheets.
H: You’d need to be able to click your fingers and the PVC mats would suddenly look less like a Shame Spiral waiting to happen, and would be covered in a nice duvet and memory foam pillow. And people wouldn’t be allowed to wipe their nobs off on the sheets either.
W: I thought you were going to say get rid of the awful 70’s porn on the sex club TV screens.
H: Ooooh good one! They should totally stop playing hardcore porn and put something classy on.
W: What’s classier than a trophy wife with platinum hair and a thick bush, being railed by the neighbourhood handyman with no lube?
Right… one thing I’d immediately remove is: gaping bumhole pics on Swinger sites. Now, I don’t want to be one to kink shame or yuck somebody’s yum, but it appears that I’m gonna make an exception this one time.
How and why?
There are enough anus photos on these sites for me to wonder whether I’m the outlier here in not finding that sexy.
Also…controversial take, readers (and please accept my insincere apology if you do this): profiles where people have put up group-sex pics, and have put a caption over the top in Comic Sans/ Calibri saying “Not the Hubby” or “Not my wifey”. Stop it now thanks. And while we’re waving the magic wand around, I’d like to wish that I never have to read the words ‘Cum Tribute’ ever again.
Final Q: If you could go back in time before you entered the Lifestyle, what advice would you give yourself?
H: Knowing what I know now… and referring back to the times when things weren’t always going right with some couples, or things were fizzling out, or when things just felt really crap and we wanted to jack it all in, I’d want my former self to know or remember that it will get better. That something new will come up; you’ll have that fun again…
W: So, having that faith that just because something doesn’t work out with certain people we were once really hopeful about, that doesn’t mean there’s anything inherently wrong with what we’re doing. It just means that we’re on our way towards people we do truly match with.
H: Yeah, exactly that. I didn’t always want to keep pushing through it in the beginning, but I’ve learnt that these things are necessary a lot of the time. What about you?
W: Mine’s a bit of a strange one. I didn’t really realise …and this is a very therapisty thing to say…how many of my attachment wounds would come up when navigating ENM. I hadn’t recognised that I still hadn’t worked through all of them. With you, I entered our relationship at 20 years old being more on the anxiously attached side, and you came in leaning more on the avoidant side. We all know that anxious-attachers are weirdly attracted to avoidant types! But over time, we definitely managed to create a really secure relationship between us; so much so, that we had that trust and found it relatively easy to enter the Lifestyle. But it was only when relating to new people in an intimate way (emotionally or sexually) that I realised I didn’t feel secure anymore. So, if I could go back to my former self and give advice before doing all of this, I’d say:
“Please do some more work on your individual elements of anxious-leaning attachment so that you don’t spend so much time wondering whether it’s you/ your fault/ something you’ve done wrong/ something you could do better, or wondering why you’re not enough, when things don’t work out with people you’re connecting with.”
That would have stood me in better stead for coping.
H: Do you think you’re past that now?
W: No.
(We both laughed here, don’t feel sad :P)
W: No, it’s a lifelong work for me, because with every new person we meet; particularly for me on my own in solo dating, it dredges up those old wounds. I just wish I’d been more prepared for that because I was very naive in thinking that because I’d managed a secure attachment to you, that this would translate to other people too. Only to find that with new people, I was peeling back layers to find those same anxious patterns arising.
H: I see that with you. It’s part of what we work on together, even though I don’t experience that. But really, it’s all part of a much bigger thing; something we both enjoy doing together, even though there are obstacles. I’d say it’s worth it for everything we’ve managed to experience and explore. Would you?
W: Absolutely, I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Thank you for pulling up a chair and getting involved with the first chat of my Conversations series!
I look forward to welcoming you back during the year, for more deep-diving into the experiences of people who are bravely living their lives within the broad and beautiful spectrum of Ethical Non-Monogamy…
Until then… x
Beyond the Pineapple 
Wonderful conversation–thank you!
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